Can we talk about new look or old look?

Discussion in 'Looks and standard' started by Alexis Castro, 1 May 2012.

  1. Nicole Davidson

    Nicole Davidson Champion

    Messages:
    99
    Country:
    North America
    Yes I understand what you mean about the standards being different. Bu I have found that at least here in the United States the judges in each association will prefer the typical look that is expected in that associations standard. So while one cat can do horrible showing in one association the same cat can do very well showing in another association. So you can't really say one type is better than another because it mainly depends on what country you are in and which association you are showing in. There will always be a few judges in each association who prefer a different look than what is typical for that association but I have found for the most part it being a waste of time and money to try to show a CFA standard cat in TICA or a FIFE standard cat in CFA.

    I have shown under CFA, TICA, and we have had TICA judges who were also FIFE judges from Europe. and I have shown cats bred to the CFA, TICA, and FIFE standard. So I can give some examples.

    I have found that majority of the judges in CFA prefer the cats that fit the CFA standard (the more Persian Look). However we did have a CFA judge visiting from Germany who preferred my FIFE standard cat. But because he was European and not American he probably sees more of the FIFE looking cats there and this has influenced his preference. and I have had 2 only 2 CFA American Judges who liked my FIFE standard cat. So basically to show my FIFE standard cat in CFA is a waste of time and money because while there will be a few judges who interpret the standard differently or prefer a different look a majority of the judges will prefer what is typical for their association.

    Now I took my CFA standard cat to a CFA show and she is making almost every single final while my FIFE standard cat made 3 yes only 3 finals in the same 6 months we were showing in CFA. Than I took my CFA standard to a TICA show and never made a single final with her while my FIFE standard cat is making about half of finals at every TICA show.

    The TICA look I can describe as a balance between the CFA Persian look and the bigger and longer FIFE look. Now if I put my very FIFE cat against a TICA standard cat at a TICA show than the TICA standard cat usually wins against my cat except when we have had European FIFE judges who than prefer my FIFE standard cat. I would say from my experience about 1/4 of the America TICA judges prefer the more FIFE look. So yes there will be some who interpret the standard different but majority of judges in an association will prefer one look over the others. So we can still have decent success showing our FIFE standard cat in TICA but I think if we had FIFE here she would do even better at shows.

    My opinion about the different types has always been to breed and show what YOU prefer than find the association that works best for your cats so you can have the most success. I have owned every look of Norwegian throughout the years and even though I am now preferring the FIFE standard cats I would hate to see the CFA or TICA standard cats eliminated. I think all looks have their place and I do not view any one type as better than another and it really is all about preference. So even though it would simplify things if all association shared the same standard I also like the variety and find them all beautiful in the own ways. And every look has an association that will work for them so everyone can choose the type the prefer and have a place where they can show and succeed. I don't think it is fair to say one look is "better". I know a breeder who is currently showing a CFA standard cat in TICA and she said that she knows my cat is better and she does not stand a chance with her cat against my cat. But I told her that just because my cat is beating her cat every time in TICA does not mean my cat Is better than her cat. Because if we were in CFA than her cat would be winning over my cat almost every time. So than things would be flipped and her cat would look like the better cat.

    Again this has just been my experience here in the United states. I have never shown in FIFE so I do not know what the judges are doing there. We only get the occasional FIFE guest judge visiting our county for TICA shows.

    To Answer your question about CFA type than yes I mean a short cobbier body. Smaller ears, shorter profile, more open eyes. Like the example that another poster gave as the Persian type.

    Ok here are my example:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    My CFA standard cat does very well in CFA but never made any wins in TICA

    My friend's TICA standard cat is more preferred by TICA judges over my FIFE standard cat (shown bellow)
    However about 1/4 of American TICA judges will prefer my cat shown bellow and if we have a TICA or FIFE judge from
    Europe they will choose my FIFE standard cat shown bellow over this TICA standard cat shown above. The cat
    shown above is a mix between a CFA standard cat and a FIFE standard cat.

    [​IMG]

    My FIFE standard cat Does well with TICA/FIFE judges but never wins in CFA

    [​IMG]
    Last edited by a moderator: 24 April 2014
  2. leinoya
    Approved

    leinoya Champion

    Messages:
    180
    Cattery name:
    Leinoya*F
    Country:
    France
    I definitely agree with both of you.
    At the show in Karlsruhe, Armoria and Gavriki were both judged by Dr A. Platz. They are both very nice cats but really different. Gavriki is long everywhere, head and body, and Armoria is more medium. Dr Platz told me he really perfers Armoria.

    And last year also, I had the opportunity to visit a CFA show in Switzerland.
    My friend Sarah Runzis showed SC Sterrekatten's Zeus DVM DSM. As you can see in his name, I won a lot of shows in FiFé. But he did absolutely nothing at this CFA show. It was not the kind of NFO they were looking for.

    Here is Zeus :
    [​IMG]
  3. Flemming Vorbeck
    Androidfan

    Flemming Vorbeck Owner & moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,261
    Cattery name:
    DK Vorbeck
    Country:
    Denmark
    I have not read the standard of the Norwegian forest cat in CFA, but judging from the photos they have in their website, the standard is definitely different:

    http://www.cfa.org/Breeds/BreedsKthruR/NorwegianForestCat.aspx

    This cat would win absolutely nothing in FIFe. In FIFe an NFO should be triangular in it's expression, not round. The ears should follow the side lines of the head, not be set high on the head.

    But it is funny, really, that what originates from the same cat has been interpreted different when put down on paper, and this has given different desires for the look depending on the association. Kindly of silly actually but also quite interesting at the same time.

    I think I will stick to FIFe, though. This is where the type of NFO I like is found :)
  4. Melissa Alexander
    Sunshine

    Melissa Alexander International Champion

    Messages:
    190
    Cattery name:
    Into Wishin
    Country:
    North America

    I agree with you on this, Flemming. However as we know, judges do not make decisions just on look, but also the many things we as exhibitors may not be able to detect unless we are able to personally handle the cat. Maybe from a distance it looks like the cat has a chin, but turns out it really doesn't have much of one once the judge touches it. Maybe a profile looks straight but once you touch it, there’s a bump or dip there. One cat may feel really great to hold (weight) and another not so great. Boning and muscle tone is also very important. I've heard many judges say, “wow” when they first remove a cat from their cage and get a good feel for the body. I've also heard a judge say “I hope this cat feels as good as it looks!” These are all things we cannot be 100% certain of from our exhibitor chair in the ring.
  5. Flemming Vorbeck
    Androidfan

    Flemming Vorbeck Owner & moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,261
    Cattery name:
    DK Vorbeck
    Country:
    Denmark

    I fully agree. Judges (at least in FIFe) often talk about that the cat has to be in balance (front/rear), and lifting the cat, feeling the coat, touching the profile and chin, laying up the tail along the back to measure the length are all part of the things that the judges do that you cannot judge just by looking at the cat. It needs to be felt as well.
  6. Ellen Kristine Rønning

    Ellen Kristine Rønning Junior Winner

    Messages:
    91
    Cattery name:
    (N) Fiskerjenta's
    Country:
    Norway
    Yes there are differences in the standard between TICA and FIFE :(
    any how I used to have a male that was loved by fife judges, and once in a show in Oslo he was judged by an austrailian judge Anne Faulkner she was not from FIFE and I was a bit nervous....but she felt in love with him, and asked for photoes of him and wrote an article with two pages in the austrailian cat association. Un fortently I dont remeber from wich assotiation she was
    [​IMG]
  7. Flemming Vorbeck
    Androidfan

    Flemming Vorbeck Owner & moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,261
    Cattery name:
    DK Vorbeck
    Country:
    Denmark
    A bit of research shows that she must have been from ACF - Australian Cat Federation. She is not on the current list of judges, so maybe she has retired.

    They have their own standard of the Norwegian forest cat:

    http://www.acf.asn.au/notices/notices/standards/Norwegian_Forest_Cat_ACF2013.pdf
  8. Nicole Davidson

    Nicole Davidson Champion

    Messages:
    99
    Country:
    North America
    I have found that you can stray a little bit from the standard of each association and still win in that association but if you go too far from the preferred look of that association than you won't have any luck at show. For example:

    CFA (Persian look) - TICA (In the middle) - FIFE (Larger longer, some say wilder look)

    So if I have a CFA Standard cat I will do very well in CFA, maybe just ok in TICA, and really bad in FIFE

    If I have a TICA standard cat I will do really well in TICA and maybe make a few wins in CFA or FIFE

    If I have a FIFE standard cat I will do very well in FIFE, ok in TICA, but very bad in CFA

    Nearly every judge picks up my silver tabby and white girl and says WOW. she just turned one year and is already out sizing the older males. She is very FIFE in look. Still most American judges will take a more TICA looking cat over her. But Every European judge so far has picked my girl as best Norwegian. So I don't let it get me down if the American TICA judges choose another cat as best Norwegian because I know that does not mean my cat is bad. So every European guest judge will choose my girl as best Norwegian and about 1/4 of the American judges prefer my FIFE girl over the more TICA cats at the show.

    Oh and we only have 2-5 Norwegians at any given show where I live so not much to compare with.
  9. Melissa Alexander
    Sunshine

    Melissa Alexander International Champion

    Messages:
    190
    Cattery name:
    Into Wishin
    Country:
    North America


    FYI - The TICA standards were revised in 2004 to be more in line with FIFE standards. They've not changed since. Has the breed standard in FIFE changed since 2004?

    My FIFE/Swiss import was 3rd Best International Allbreed cat of the year in TICA ( 2008, I think?) The same year a male from my breeding was an International winning top 20 allbreed kitten and his dam is from Norway/FIFE, sire is from Sweden/FIFE. The next year this kitten was a top 10 Allbreed International winning champion cat. Almost all of my FIFE Imports have achieved SGC status and have received Regional Wins at some level. Point being, I feel that TICA appreciates and rewards FIFE cats within the organization.
  10. Ellen Kristine Rønning

    Ellen Kristine Rønning Junior Winner

    Messages:
    91
    Cattery name:
    (N) Fiskerjenta's
    Country:
    Norway
  11. Flemming Vorbeck
    Androidfan

    Flemming Vorbeck Owner & moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,261
    Cattery name:
    DK Vorbeck
    Country:
    Denmark
    To the best of my knowledge the technical standard has not changed. The division of points has changed a bit. Previously 25 points were given for coat/colour. Now 20 points are given for coat and 5 for colour.

    The FIFe standard is found here: http://www1.fifeweb.org/dnld/std/NFO.pdf
  12. Nicole Davidson

    Nicole Davidson Champion

    Messages:
    99
    Country:
    North America
    My FIFE standard cat has also done quite well in TICA in the shows I have brought her to so far. I know she will supreme for sure. Unfortunately I stopped showing her half way through her first season in TICA 2013-2014 season due to personal issues in my family. But I believe if I would have continued to show her she would have been in the top 15 or maybe even top 10 of breed in TICA internationally. Im going to try to make every show in my region this next season and see how we do. Of course if she gets pregnant this could make us fall behind. One of the pitfalls of trying to compete for a regional or national award with a female. Mad at myself now for dropping out of last season. Im planning on bringing another very FIFE cat to the u.s. within a year as it is becoming my preferred look. I have found in TICA is depends on the judge. Some really like the FIFE cats and some more the moderate cats but overall TICA is the best place to show the FIFE cats. I am not attending CFA shows any longer as the judges have mistaken my cats for Maine Coons one too many times and at least the judges in my region most of them do not seem to care about the Norwegian breed at all nor know how to judge them. I know other Norwegian people in my area have left CFA for the same reason.
  13. Nicole Davidson

    Nicole Davidson Champion

    Messages:
    99
    Country:
    North America
    Beautiful cat that you have. I am in the united states and after a few years of showing in CFA I have now learn that it is all about who you know and not whether you actually have a good cat or not. The smaller local CFA shows here use the same judges again and again and all of the judges have become friends with the club members and long time old exhibitors. Any guess as to who is winning all the finals at these shows? Yes... all the club members and long time show people are indeed the winners. NOT the newer people like me. BUT when the occasional judge is brought in from another region to judge at one of my local shows guess who is suddenly making finals.... ME! With a cat that is similar in type to your cat in the photo. Is it any coincidence that the local judges who are friends with certain people pick their friends while the judges from other areas who are not friends with the local exhibitors are picking my cats? Not a coincidence at all. When I tried to complain about this I was than told that my cat is simply not good quality by many of the friends of the judges. Well my "not good quality" cat according to CFA just made 6 out of 8 finals at our most recent TICA show including a #1, #2, and #3 all breed placement out of 42 cats. Pretty good for a cat that CFA calls not good quality. CFA doesn't know NFO at all! TICA judges know the NFO MUCH better and judging is much more fair because judges are brought in from many regions and we have different judges all of the time. I am in United states also and like Mellissa from Into Wishin Cattery and I have also left CFA permanently as well as I know other NFO breeders who have done the same for the same reasons as I.
  14. Nicole Davidson

    Nicole Davidson Champion

    Messages:
    99
    Country:
    North America
    Now that I have been more active in TICA and going to more shows now I also find that the TICA judges are loving my very FIFE standard cat especially now that she has balanced out. Her first year she was a bit of an ugly duckling with uneven proportions. I have also had several CFA judges tell me that they have never even seen a cat of her type before which is Interesting. I am very interested in NFO type and show results because for the past several years I have struggled with several different types trying to figure out what works in which association. But I just look the FIFE look. Im happy that TICA appreciates this and it is so nice to see breeders who are bringing these lovely cats to our country.
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page